Monthly Archives: June 2017

The 6 Philosophical Christian Apologetics

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Thanks to Wikipedia, there is a convenient list of the 6 philosophical Christian Apologetics. Let’s see if I can tear them down in less than 10 minutes.

1. Cosmological argument – Argues that the existence of the universe demonstrates that God exists. Various primary arguments from cosmology and the nature of causation are often offered to support the cosmological argument.

Despite the modern sounding name, this is probably the oldest argument.  Plato used a version of it, and it was made famous by Thomas Aquinas, in the 13th century.  You can see two problems here.  Plato was a not a Christian and this argument predates Christianity.  The second is, even if you can somehow posit a first mover, it would be infinitely more complex than a naturalistic explanation.  In addition, the ‘newer’ Kalam version of this apologetic STILL does not have a way to link this first mover to the god of their choice.

2. Teleological argument – Argues that there is a purposeful design in the world around us, and a design requires a designer. Cicero, William Paley, and Michael Behe use this argument as well as others.

This argument was always a weak one to me.  The world does not appear to be designed, or if it is, not very well.  From what we now know about evolution by means of natural selection, and the fossil record, this argument is next to useless.

3.  Ontological argument – Argues that the very concept of God demands that there is an actual existent God.

Silliest of the arguments, because you can think of a maximally great entity, it must exist.  This argument really falls apart if you replace god with demon.  It works equally well, perhaps even better, arguing an infinitely evil entity exists.  Even when new, this argument never gained much traction.

4.  Moral Argument – Argues that there are objectively valid moral values, and therefore, there must be an absolute from which they are derived.

Simple, there are no objective moral values, and cultures in isolation can have very different values.  Morals are a result of culture and genetic predisposition and are not absolute.

5.  Transcendental Argument – Argues that all our abilities to think and reason require the existence of God.

I really don’t get this one, to be honest.  Animals can think, machines can reason.  If a machine can reason, there is a god?  It really makes no sense and have not really read a good explanation over several apologetics books I have read.

6.  Presuppositional Arguments – Argues that the basic beliefs of theists and nontheists require God as a necessary precondition.

This is the most circular argument and a subset of Transcendental Argument, which I don’t get. The argument boils down to you need to know everything, or know someone who knows everything, to know anything.  This is a stupid argument.  It is akin to saying you need to know the absolute temperatures to know any temperature.  We were able to measure temperature WAY before we knew what temperature was and what the limits are. I don’t know why you would need to know ALL of the members of a set to know ANY of the members of a set.  Another example is numbers.  They are a concept, but you do not need to know all real numbers to perform mathematics.  The last issue is, how do you know which god to choose?  Your Bible says it is true, but so does the Koran, Book of Mormon, i ching, 4 noble truths, eightfold path, Tao Te Ching, and the Egyptian Book of the Dead and many others.  In the end, the Bible is True, Because the Bible Says It’s True.

8 Questions No Atheist Can Answer!

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I watched a few seconds of a Youtube video, rebutting 8 Questions No Atheist Can Answer!  So, I decided to stop and see how I would/could answer these 8 questions:

1. If morality isn’t objective, does that mean Hitler never did anything wrong? Are our actions just a consequence of nature?

Objectively wrong, no Hitler did not do anything objectively wrong.  To his point of view, what he did was moral and just.  Morality is subjective, and what he did was subjectively wrong to most people, but not all.  Our actions are a consequence of nature.

2. If you’re meaning to life is subjective and your sense of purpose in life is truly meaningless when you take into account how brief it is in the geologic time scale and how the universe will one day be destroyed, why do you try to hold others to your subjective moral standard? Why and HOW can you judge God?

I don’t hold others to my subjective moral standard, but as a society and as a species, it is in our best interest to develop a SUBJECTIVE moral code.  Knowing this is our only life make it imperative to not waste it being cruel to others.  I can’t judge god, god is an imaginary character.  It is like asking how I can judge Spiderman or the Hulk.  It is a nonsense question.

3. What proof do you have to say that God doesn’t exist? To prove that God doesn’t exist, you have to logically have a reason as to why the universe came into being out of an eternal realm of nothingness.

No, I do not have and have no obligation to disprove a god.  I am not the one making a positive claim.  However, the concept of an all powerful, infinite, all loving, but unchanging god, that is separate from time and space, but personal seems pretty self refuting.  The concept of eternal and nothingness is meaningless before time and space.

4. Where and why did the universe pop into existence out of the “Big Bang”? Where did the Multiverse pop out of? If there was no universe made out of space-time, does that mean it just popped out of an eternal realm of nothing?

This is just the second part of question 3, broken out.   The concept of “Where” is meaningless before space-time.  Why? is an odd question.  Does the sun need a reason to shine?  Apply the same to Multiverse.  Yes, our present universe can just pop out of nothing, it is called quantum fluctuations.  Happens all the time.

5. Where did life come from and how? How do you explain the fine-tuning of the universe? That means that there are hundreds of thousands of conditions that needed to meet so that our universe could support life or even exist.

I am not a biologist that studies abiogenesis and I suspect you aren’t either, but let me muddle through this disjointed question. Life arose over 3.5 billion year ago, there are many theories of the origin.  I personally believe it began either in mud, or around hydrothermal vents.  I am not a physicist, but the fine tuning argument is poorly understood.  Fine tuning is a Descriptive, not Prescriptive values.  They are descriptions of what the values are.  There are not hundreds of thousands of values.  The entire universe is bounded by:  Electromagnetism, Gravity, Strong Nuclear Force, and the Weak Nuclear Force.  I only count 4 fundamental forces.  Finally, life began and evolved to work within these limits, no the other way around.

6. Why did the first organism need to consume to survive if it came into existence out of star dust? What drove it to survive?

It did not pop into existence in star dust.  Life almost certainly began in the vast oceans, where there was tremendous amounts of chemical energy.  When that chemical energy ran out, photosynthesis evolved to harness the sun.  The first life on earth was almost certainly RNA based.  It had no drive to survive, like a falling object has no desire to fall, it just does.

7. Where did DNA come from and how did something so complicated randomly come into existence? It is said that one single DNA can hold the equivalent to 4,500 books of information.

Before DNA was RNA, which is derived from Amino Acids. Amino acids are VERY common, and can even be found in the near vacuum of space.  The early oceans were a literal soup of amino acids.  Take amino acids, add energy and time and you will get RNA.  Make enough RNA and there will be self replicating RNA.  Put self replicating RNA in a phospholipid membrane, and you have a simple cell.  The second part is a statement referring to a metaphor.  DNA is not a book.

8. What evidence is there for the changing of kinds? We all know that there are thousands of species of the same kind of animal, like there are several different kinds of dogs. But there in nothing in the record of evolution that proves that one kind of animal, like a fish, can evolve into a human. Cats are always cat and humanoids are always humanoids. Some people say that because we all share DNA, that we are therefore all related. However, DNA and matter can merely be the mechanism God used to create all animals with and he made each slightly different.

Kinds is a meaningless term.  There are entire museums and warehouses FULL of transitional fossils.  I don’t understand the ‘thousands of species of the same kind of animal’.  A species is a very specific definition.  It is members of a population that can mate and produce viable offspring.  The evolution of humans is intently researched and beyond the scope of this humble blog post.  Cats are not always cats and humanoids are not human.  You could not mate with an homo habilis, erectus, etc.  Maybe, maybe with a Heidelbergensis, but I doubt it.  Where are all these other humanoids?  They are all extinct.  We are all related, humans, dogs, whales, potatoes, crabs, grass…we all share DNA.  What’s the point?  Finally, we have a cop out here with guided evolution.  Why add god when natural selection is the simpler answer?

Finding Hell

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Some Christian apologists describe hell as a separation from god, not the fiery pit we all think of.  I don’t know how separation from a god you don’t think exists is hell, but I got me wondering:  How is hell described in the Bible?

With the magic of Xiphos and the search feature, lets find every reference to hell in the Modern King James Version of the Bible:

Deuteronomy  32:22  For a fire is kindled in My anger, and shall burn to the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with its increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

Sounds pretty hot and fiery to me.

II Samuel 22:6 When the waves of death encircled me, the floods of ungodly men made me afraid.  The sorrows of hell hemmed me in. The snares of death went in front of me.

Not much here to go off of.

Job 11:8  Can you perfectly find out the Almighty?  Heights of the heavens! What can you do?It is deeper than hell, what can you know?  The measure of it is longer than the earth, and broader than the sea.

Hell is described as a physical place, a very deep place.

Job 26:6  Hell is naked before Him, and the Pit has no covering.

Hell is a pit.

Psalms 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, all the nations that forget God.

Still sounds like hell is a physical place, and the nations have already forgotten god.

Psalms 16:10  My flesh also shall rest in hope;  For You will not leave My soul in hell; You will not allow Your Holy One to see corruption.

First mention of a soul in hell.

Psalms 18:5  The sorrows of death hemmed me in, and the floods of ungodly men made me afraid.  The sorrows of hell surrounded me; the snares of death confronted me.  

First indication that hell is being compared to ungodly men.

Psalms 55:15  Let desolation take hold on them, and let them go down alive into hell; for evils are among them in their dwellings.

Go alive into hell.  Hell is a physical place.

Psalms 86:13  For great is Your mercy toward me; and You have delivered my soul from the lowest hell. 

Hell still a physical place.  Rephrased Psalms 16:10.

Psalms 116:3 The sorrows of death hemmed me in, and the pains of hell took hold on me; I found trouble and sorrow.

Same as Psalms 18:5 without the ungodly men.  Still sounds like physical place.

Proverbs 5:5  Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell,  lest you should meditate on the path of life, her tracks are movable; you cannot know them.

Going down to a hell.  Still physical sounding.

Proverbs 7:27  Her house is the way to hell, going down to the rooms of death.

Hell is still a place.

Proverbs 9:18  But he does not know that the dead are there; her guests are in the depths of hell. 

Depths of hell.  Sounds pretty physical to me.

Proverbs 15:11    Hell and destruction are before the LORD; even more the hearts of the sons of men? 

Really sounds like god made hell.

Proverbs 15:24    The way of life is above to the wise, so that he may turn away from hell below. 

Hell is below, physically below.

Proverbs 23:14  Do not withhold correction from a boy, for if you beat him with the rod, he will not die.  You shall beat him with the rod, and shall deliver his soul from hell.  

Child abuse, beating with a rod, and soul that goes to hell.  No mention of separation from god here.

Proverbs 27:20  Hell and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied.

Hell is a place that is never full.

Isaiah 5:14  So hell has enlarged itself, and opened its mouth without measure; and their glory, and their multitude, and their pride, and he who rejoices in her, shall go down into it.

Hell is a place, that has a mouth that can be infinite.

Isaiah 14:9  Hell from below is moved for you, to meet you at your coming. It stirs up the dead for you, all the he-goats of the earth. It has raised from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

Hell is still a physical place.

Isaiah 14:15    I will go up above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the Most High.  Yet you shall be brought down to hell, to the sides of the Pit.

Down to hell, sides of the Pit.

Isaiah 28:15   Because you have said, We have made a covenant with death, and we have made a vision with hell; when the overwhelming rod shall pass through, it shall not come to us; for we have made lies our refuge, and we have hidden ourselves under falsehood,  therefore so says the Lord Jehovah, Behold, I place in Zion a Stone for a foundation, a tried Stone, a precious Cornerstone, a sure Foundation; he who believes shall not hurry.

Hell is still a place.

Isaiah 28:18  And your covenant with death shall be wiped out, and your vision with hell shall not stand; when the overwhelming rod shall pass through, then you shall be beaten down by it.

Still sounds like a place, beaten down by it.

Isaiah 57:9  And you went to the king with ointment, and increased your perfumes, and sent your messengers far off, and lowered yourself even to hell. 

Lowered to hell.

Ezekiel 31:16-17  I made the nations shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with those who go down in the Pit. And all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the lower parts of the earth.   They also went down into hell with him to those who are slain with the sword, even his arm, who lived under his shadow in the midst of the nations.

Hell is described as the Pit.  Down to hell.  Still no mention of separation from god.

Ezekiel 32:21  The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with those who help him. They have gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.

Back to hell.

Ezekiel 32:27  And they shall not lie with the mighty that are fallen of the uncircumcised, who have gone down to hell with their weapons of war. And they have put their swords under their heads, but their sins shall be on their bones, though they were the terror of the mighty in the land of the living.

Down to hell, with weapons of war.

Amos 9:2   If they dig into hell, there My hand shall take them. And if they go up to the heavens, I will bring them down from there.

You can dig to hell.

New Testament Hell:

Matthew 5:22  But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be liable to the judgment. And whoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be liable to the sanhedrin; but whoever shall say, Fool! shall be liable to be thrown into the fire of hell. 

Thrown into the fire of hell.

Matthew 5:29   And if your right eye offends you, pluck it out and throw it from you. For it is profitable for you that one of your members should perish, and not that your whole body should be thrown into hell. 

Whole body thrown into hell, and pluck your own eye out?  Really?

Matthew 5:30  And if your right hand offends you, cut it off and throw it from you. For it is profitable for you that one of your members should perish, and not that your whole body should be thrown into hell.

Hand instead of eye this time.

Matthew 10:28  And do not fear those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. But rather fear Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

This is an interesting one, seems to imply the soul can be destroyed in hell.  Annihilation?

Matthew 11:23  And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to the heaven, shall be brought down to hell. For if the mighty works which have been done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

Up to heaven, down to hell.  No idea what the rest means.

Matthew 16:18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Gates of Hell.  Again, physical place.

Matthew 18:9  And if your eye offends you, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into the hell of fire.

Same exact thing as Matthew 5:29.  Why?  Hell of fire.

Matthew 23:15  Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you compass sea and the dry land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, you make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Don’t know.

Matthew 23:33   Serpents! Offspring of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?

Hell has snakes.

Mark 9:43  And if your hand offends you, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed than to have two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched.

Really, again?  However, this add a fire that never shall be quenched.

Mark 9:45-47   And if your foot offends you, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life lame than to have two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched  where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched.  And if your eye offends you, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes to be cast into hell fire  where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched.

Foot this time, and back to eyes and a fire that can’t be quenched.

Luke 10:15   And you, Capernaum, which has been lifted up to Heaven, you shall be thrust down into hell.

Didn’t we read this before?  Still down to hell.

Luke 12:5  But I will warn you of whom you shall fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yea, I say to you, fear Him.

This is an interesting one, is appears god casts you to hell.  It is his choice.

Luke 16:23  And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Hell is a place, being in torment.  Not sure what Abraham holding Lazarus in his bosom means.

James 3:6  And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity. So the tongue is set among our members, spotting all the body and inflaming the course of nature, and being inflamed by hell.

Yep, more fiery hell.

Revelation 1:18  Do not fear, I am the First and the Last,  and the Living One, and I became dead, and behold, I am alive for ever and ever, Amen. And I have the keys of hell and of death.

Again, god is the one who is in charge of death and hell.

Revelation 6:8  And I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him sitting on it was Death, and Hell followed with him. And authority was given to them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with the sword and with hunger and with death and by the beasts of the earth.

This time Hell is used as a proper name.  Are Death and Hell one in the same?  Not sure.

Revelation 20:13  And the sea gave up the dead in it. And death and hell delivered up the dead in them. And each one of them was judged according to their works.

Sounds like in this case hell is just the ground.  Interestingly, it does appear that we are judged by our works.  Hmmm.

Revelation 201:14   And death and hell were cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death. And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was cast into the Lake of Fire.

Well, there you have it.  Lake of Fire.

This was every reference I could find in the Bible to hell.  As with a lot of the Bible, there are repeats.  I don’t see separation from god in here as an alternative to an unquenchable flame and a Lake of Fire and torment.  Hell pretty much meets up with the classic understanding of hell.  A fiery place, full of torment.  Any apologists out there who want to point out the alternative view?  I quoted EVERY Bible verse.  I did not omit one jot or tiddle.

I did look online for some reference to separation from god, and found this:

II Thessalonians  For this is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God for which you also suffer,  since it is a righteous thing with God to repay tribulation to those who trouble you,  and to give rest with us to you who are troubled, at the revealing of the Lord Jesus from Heaven with the angels of His power,  in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God and who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ,  who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,  when He shall come to be glorified in His saints and to be admired in all those who believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that Day.

In flaming fire…punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord…  Well.  I am more concerned with fire and destruction than separation from the presence of the Lord.  Seems coincidental, not the main focus.

On the theological side, I have read both arguments, and, to be honest, I have to agree with the old fire and brimstone idea of hell.  If you actually read the Bible, that is clearly what it is describing.   I could fine no evidence otherwise.